tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post2792373117287658783..comments2023-08-03T07:33:41.442-07:00Comments on Idealistic Pragmatist: Political culture and the post-2008 NDPIdealistic Pragmatisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-63486222902759499812008-11-28T12:40:00.000-07:002008-11-28T12:40:00.000-07:00MSS,Oh, I hope it's interesting to your students a...MSS,<BR/><BR/>Oh, I hope it's interesting to your students as well! What a nice thing to say.<BR/><BR/>As for the "Canadian-style" thread, it sure looks interesting. I just wish I had some time to contribute to it...Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-50784375385219775182008-11-27T19:07:00.000-07:002008-11-27T19:07:00.000-07:00Spectacularly good post, IP. I am even going to re...Spectacularly good post, IP. I am even going to recommend it to my students.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, the thread you started over at F&V about what is <A HREF="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1906" REL="nofollow">"Canadian style" minority governance</A> continues to grow.MSShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14199636437911986505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-64604904495640149722008-11-27T13:50:00.000-07:002008-11-27T13:50:00.000-07:00Ontario's rejection of MMP is no indication whatso...Ontario's rejection of MMP is no indication whatsoever of the popularity or unpopularity of PR.<BR/><BR/>The new James Bond film sucked! It's even worse that Man With The Golden Gun and Moonraker put together!!!<BR/><BR/>The Liberals in all I've ever seen oppose PR.<BR/><BR/>IP: Very interesting post.Jacques Beau Verthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16450947780950412676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-34520571103299886322008-11-16T12:11:00.000-07:002008-11-16T12:11:00.000-07:00Good post IP. I just had a comment to make regardi...Good post IP. <BR/><BR/>I just had a comment to make regarding tyrone's "MMP just went down in flames in Ontario". I think the loss on that vote is more complex than an electorate that was opposed to MMP.<BR/><BR/>The set up of the referendum was such that the proposition was doomed to failure; I believe it was the NDP leader in Ontario (Howard Hampton) who mentioned that he was pretty much muzzled from talking about MMP by the rules imposed by Elections Ontario.<BR/><BR/>As a poll clerk during the election I was shocked about how many people didn't realize that there was a referendum going on, the major players didn't (or couldn't) talk about it. <BR/><BR/>The vote seemed to have been designed to fail by Elections Ontario. Perhaps under better rules it would have done better (or perhaps with a better system proposed, like STV), but that's all wistful thinking now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-20744865389730858662008-11-15T12:59:00.000-07:002008-11-15T12:59:00.000-07:00Excellent post! Thank you, I/P!Excellent post! Thank you, I/P!laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-78595308024020293062008-11-14T14:55:00.000-07:002008-11-14T14:55:00.000-07:00Ken,Well, I certainly agree that electoral reform ...Ken,<BR/><BR/>Well, I certainly agree that electoral reform isn't going to come from the Conservatives. Where we part ways is in your thinking that it will come from any other party or combination of parties. The Liberals have shown no interest in the issue, and while the NDP and the Greens' support for it is laudable, they've yet to prove that they understand what a change it would make to our political culture. I strongly believe that successful electoral reform initiatives have to come from the citizenry and not from political parties.<BR/><BR/>However, I'd love to be proven wrong on this. If you think you can implement proportional representation (which is the antithesis of "uniting the left", incidentally--you are aware of that, right?) in some other way than through a citizen-driven process, I wish you the best of luck. I'm not going to look an electoral reform gift horse in the mouth if rides up to us wearing an orange, green, and red striped blanket. But I'm not going to hold my breath, either.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-69870510543692977452008-11-14T14:43:00.000-07:002008-11-14T14:43:00.000-07:00As a Green supporter in Central Ontario, I have re...As a Green supporter in Central Ontario, I have recommended to our EDA that enter into an "Un-holy" Alliance with the LIBS and NDP, to unite the left.<BR/><BR/>Electoral Reform will only happen if the CPC is defeated and this can only happen by running 1 candidate against the CPC and not splitting the vote.Ken S from Ramarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16983894655094943569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-12961340762821683432008-11-14T14:24:00.000-07:002008-11-14T14:24:00.000-07:00Tyrone,In all my years paying attention to the iss...Tyrone,<BR/><BR/>In all my years paying attention to the issue of electoral reform, I have never seen so many discussions of proportional representation in the media, on the streets, at meetings, and at work than I have after this election. That is not the mark of an idea that is "unpopular." You don't get to point at one election in one province and proclaim based on that how unpopular it is.<BR/><BR/>As for your comment about Germany's and Canada's political structures being similar--isn't that all the more reason to attribute the differences in the political <I>cultures</I> (not the number of parties or their configuration) to the voting system? Thank you for making my point for me.<BR/><BR/>Having addressed those points of your comment, though, you might want to read this post again for the words that are actually in it rather than the ones you're envisioning between the lines. What it is about: why I'm not getting more involved with the "future of the NDP" discussions that are going on (or with the party at all on a level any higher than the constituency). What it is not about: advice for the future of the NDP, how I think the NDP should gain power, which issues I think the NDP should put at the top of its agenda, global warming, purple cows, the new James Bond film, any other subjects other than the one listed above.<BR/><BR/>Chrystal,<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-79576711185636663542008-11-14T13:15:00.000-07:002008-11-14T13:15:00.000-07:00But remember just how unpopular an idea PR is. MM...But remember just how unpopular an idea PR is. MMP just went down in flames in Ontario. Examples from Europe have not convinced Canadians; they need to see an example *in Canada*.<BR/><BR/>The only real hope for that is BC's STV vote next year, which even if it passes won't actually take effect until 2013.<BR/><BR/>So national PR is *at best* at least ten years off. The NDP cannot wait until then to make the attempt to win power. That means they must deal with the voting system as is, not as they wish it was. <BR/><BR/>I'm not even sure how much difference PR would really make in governance. Germany's political history seems to be remarkably similar to Canada's. Since 1945, there have been two major parties (CDU, SPD) and one minor one (FDP). In the 80s and 90s these were joined by a Green party and a leftist party with support mostly in one region (PDS).<BR/><BR/>Bottom line is that dollars-and-cents policies of a party - health care, social programs, taxes etc - are always going to matter much more to voters than the electoral system. Especially in a country like Canada that has been plagued by divisive constitutional questions. For a party to campaign primarily on the PR issue seems unwise.Tyronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517491466629482995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-5825581319863524402008-11-14T12:05:00.000-07:002008-11-14T12:05:00.000-07:00Excellent, excellent post. Have commented elsewher...Excellent, excellent post. <BR/><BR/>Have commented elsewhere that the only way I'd support a coalition among opposition parties to form the government is if they stated - in writing, on air, in a statement that is notarized - that they'd make proportional representation their first order of business. AND that the process for determining that system would be debated and chosen by citizens of this country, not by MPs or the backroom boys of the various parties.Chrystal Oceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00171002438761303983noreply@blogger.com