tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post2025292985012959939..comments2023-08-03T07:33:41.442-07:00Comments on Idealistic Pragmatist: Dual citizenship: "loyalty," "convenience," or an acknowledgement of facts?Idealistic Pragmatisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-27625299563834374592006-12-15T03:35:00.000-07:002006-12-15T03:35:00.000-07:00Sorry to get to this one so late, IP, thank you fo...Sorry to get to this one so late, IP, thank you for your post! I would echo the above call for you to reprint this somewhere, at least in a letter to the editor, perhaps not word for word, but expressing the same sentiment. It's a side of the debate that needs to be more represented in the media I believe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-73593553115067678642006-12-14T15:44:00.000-07:002006-12-14T15:44:00.000-07:00Multiculturalism vs melting pot is a politely Cana...Multiculturalism vs melting pot is a politely Canadian fiction. In practice, the two operate virtually identically.<br /><br />Immigrants to both Canada and the US continue to worship the same way, cook the same foods, celebrate the same festivals, and speak the same language at home as they did in their countries of origin. It is not even remotely realistic to expect them to do otherwise. <br /><br />Canadian right-wingers love to complain that the US' melting pot supposedly integrates immigrants much better than Canada. Cross the border, and American right-wingers whine that immigrants are speaking Spanish too much and not integrating. By "integration" of course, they really mean "assimilation". In reality, it takes a generation, sometimes two, to fully assimilate immigrant populations. If you don't want ethnic ghettoes, don't accept immigrants. It's as simple as that.<br /><br />Adopting US-style policies would neither satisfy nativists nor make much actual difference on how immigrants live their lives.<br /><br />As for dual citizenship, the country that has the most dual citizens with Canada is far and away the USA. Many of these are Canadian-born who have <i>emigrated</i> to the US, or had children born there. For them to be stripped of their Canadian citizenship merely for emigrating would probably be unconstitutional, and so it should remain.Tyronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517491466629482995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-78086295855148062422006-12-13T23:53:00.000-07:002006-12-13T23:53:00.000-07:00Good points. Upon closer inspection, "loyalty" and...Good points. Upon closer inspection, "loyalty" and "convenience" have little to do with citizenship (a relationship between an individual and a state) at all.<br /><br />First, loyalty. Friends aren't loyal because they have a sheet of paper that say they're loyal, but because they behave in a loyal way. And they may have other friends to whom they are also loyal! All at the same time, with no official certificates. People expect loyalty from their friends without asking them to rescind their other friendships, so the concept of dual (multiple) loyalties is widely understood, but when applied to citizenship evokes jingoistic reactions for whatever reason.<br /><br />Then there's convenience. Are there Canadians somewhere out there not paying enough taxes? That's a tax issue. Country X can require (if they so wish) citizens of X to pay taxes T even if citizen X resides in country Y. So that's independent of whether or not citizen X is also a citizen of Y or Z. Wait a minute! What about single-citizenship Canadians who evade taxes? Are they loyal?<br /><br />So the citizenship issue is overblown, to our detriment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-54936938813575346562006-12-12T21:51:00.000-07:002006-12-12T21:51:00.000-07:00Maggie H is right. The national myth of Canada as ...Maggie H is right. The national myth of Canada as a cultural mosiac only came to the forefront thirty or so years ago, so it's not surprising that a fair number of people don't quite get it yet.<br /><br />Honestly, the whole debate seems like it comes from sixty years ago. "Randy's mother is german, he must be spying for them!"<br /><br />People who think dual citizenship is an issue haven't stepped into the 21st century yet. Nowadays, this kind of brainless nationalism isn't good for much except selling beer and buying the votes of the shallow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-20534844854959617242006-12-11T00:59:00.000-07:002006-12-11T00:59:00.000-07:00Its not about duel citizenship its about Dion bein...Its not about duel citizenship its about Dion being from Quebec and France,its about intolerance and different standards depending on ones politics.There was not a peep when John Turner lead the country,he had duel citizenship.<br />Its an issue in the minds of small mindsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-65537856634188684352006-12-10T17:49:00.000-07:002006-12-10T17:49:00.000-07:00Another dual citizen raises her hand here, to say ...Another dual citizen raises her hand here, to say that part of this (which, believe me, is making me furiously angry on an ongoing basis) is perhaps about the quite recent nature of Canada's committment (such as it is) to multiculturalism. Because this really is something that has become part of the Canadian self-definition over the course of my lifetime so far, and so maybe it's not actually all that surprising that it can turn out to be shallowly rooted at times.<br /><br />I grew up with the knowledge that, at 18, I would have to choose only one citizenship. It was really only shortly before I did turn 18 that Canada permitted dual citizenships freely enough that I didn't have to make that choice. <br /><br />I *hope*, I really really hope, that this debate will end up re-establishing the multicultural view of what it means to be Canadian. But I have to say that at the moment, the signs do not seem encouraging.<br /><br />-- maggie hAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-48073971163936466032006-12-10T17:48:00.000-07:002006-12-10T17:48:00.000-07:00IP, I agree with you entirely on all points, chief...IP, I agree with you entirely on all points, chiefly when it comes to choice. There is no reason why you can't be both Canadian and American! To say one has to choose one nationality over another would be no different than demanding X, whose mother is Chinese and whose father is white Anglo-Canadian, to be either Chinese or Canadian--not both. If one cannot draw a neat and tidy biracial line, how could it then be possible to draw a binational line in the same way? Hooey, I say.<br /><br />As Dion has dual citizenship, there's no reason for him to discard it, no matter how practical the purpose of keeping it. Plus, it's for his mom!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-71794641165991936352006-12-10T17:27:00.000-07:002006-12-10T17:27:00.000-07:00previous anon:
amen! thanks, rob, for reminding...previous anon: <br /><br />amen! thanks, rob, for reminding me of why I don't actually want to vote for the liberals...your convention was so cool that i forgot for a while. but it sure doesn't take much to bring back that familar old uberpartisan arrogance.<br /><br />janeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-47884024673259548582006-12-10T05:03:00.000-07:002006-12-10T05:03:00.000-07:00Yeah, rob, wouldn't it be nice for you if this rea...Yeah, rob, wouldn't it be nice for you if this really was all about Dion versus the NDP. Too bad people can see through your transparent efforts to turn IP's thoughtful post into your own blind partisan bleating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-7003205017374893462006-12-10T01:07:00.000-07:002006-12-10T01:07:00.000-07:00We musn't forget two people who joined the chorus ...We musn't forget two people who joined the chorus to attack Dion on this point: Jack Layton and Pat Martin.robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06557812182283316971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-38477588720886823592006-12-09T18:02:00.000-07:002006-12-09T18:02:00.000-07:00Ahah, by elected, I mean becomes PM.Ahah, by elected, I mean becomes PM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-66871539150724438702006-12-09T17:59:00.000-07:002006-12-09T17:59:00.000-07:00I think this is superbly written, and personally I...I think this is superbly written, and personally I think that Dion should absolutely not give up his French citizenship if he is elected.<br /><br />About the big rumblings of dissatisfaction though, I'd like to point out the statistic that was I think quoted in the Globe&Mail yesterday (I can't remember exactly) that even among the still fairly large number of Canadians who aren't totally enamoured with gay marriage, when asked about where the issue ranked in terms of importance, it was pretty much off the radar. I have the feeling that this is the same situation - when asked directly, a lot of people reply they aren't sure about it, but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it really matters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-89626349641165427662006-12-09T17:28:00.000-07:002006-12-09T17:28:00.000-07:00The current President of Latvia gave up her Canadi...The current President of Latvia gave up her Canadian citizenship to become President, but then Latvia only allows dual citizenship in exceptional situations. That, inconveniently, means that I am no longer one. Automatic EU citizenship would have been a nice perk to have.leonsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11471170209182513667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1215938167598881962006-12-09T14:35:00.000-07:002006-12-09T14:35:00.000-07:00Folks, don't you see? This dual citizenship debate...Folks, don't you see? This dual citizenship debate isn't the work of a vocal minority. It's something that has obviously struck a chord with a lot of people. I've seen one poll where 70% of Canadians have said they believe the leader of their country should have only one citizenship. Another one was basically 50/50. Not exactly insignificant numbers.<br /><br />Don't try to squash this debate. It's healthy. Don't be too quick to play the 'bigot' card for people who have an opion that doesn't fit yours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-5029605904046238132006-12-09T14:10:00.000-07:002006-12-09T14:10:00.000-07:00IP,
Yes, we've been following the saga of the dua...IP,<br /><br />Yes, we've been following the saga of the dual citizenship question enumerated in your first paragraph and watching it closely.<br /><br />Thus far I am impressed with Stephane Dion's management of the situation - especially the reference to the French citizenship being a "gift" from his mother. Hopefully, if the Tory pundits and politicians will sit back, chill out, and consider the situation rationally it will become a non-issue. Whoops - I mentioned being rational and referencing the Tories in the same sentence . . . . Not being realistic, was I?!?!?West End Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05757317517075393438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-44036294595301036552006-12-09T14:09:00.000-07:002006-12-09T14:09:00.000-07:00Hi IP,
Nice post !
Aside from merely echoing pra...Hi IP,<br /><br />Nice post !<br /><br />Aside from merely echoing praise, I would add that we do have an issue of <a href="http://www.embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2006/august/9/peterson/">Canadians of convenience</a> as it relates to "legal persons" and corporate accountability. Although it's a different issue, it is a related one.<br /><br />Happy HolidaysCanadian Tar Heelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296189877750355753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-32454996412441541382006-12-09T13:30:00.000-07:002006-12-09T13:30:00.000-07:00Jeremy,
Thanks for the compliment. I suspect peo...Jeremy,<br /><br />Thanks for the compliment. I suspect people don't reprint things that have already been published on the Internet, but the thought made me smile, anyway.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-12679704314080453932006-12-09T13:17:00.000-07:002006-12-09T13:17:00.000-07:00First,
This is an excellent piece and I hope tha...First, <br /><br />This is an excellent piece and I hope that you would try to see it published. <br /><br />Second,<br /><br />The idea that people are stuck in cultual ghettos is so unbelievably culturally arrogant... Damn. <br /><br />Third, <br /><br />This issue is ridiculous, especially when you consider that there are many other issues worthy of serious debate in the public. I cannot believe that this is the issue we have choosen to focus on. What a waste of time.Dr. Tuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00930678454023644407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-26615679094393294442006-12-09T11:36:00.000-07:002006-12-09T11:36:00.000-07:00lone primate,
Like I said earlier, this isn't abo...lone primate,<br /><br />Like I said earlier, this isn't about Dion, nor is it about a handful of bigots like Ezra Lavant. These rumblings have been going on for much, much longer than just this week, and they cut to the core of the very ideals that this country claims to be about.<br /><br />Dismiss this at your own peril.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-16019187194431187362006-12-09T11:32:00.000-07:002006-12-09T11:32:00.000-07:00Unfortunately, you should know that looks can be v...Unfortunately, you should know that looks can be very deceptive, because I do consider myself as a Canadian and I'm totally ashamed to live in a "cultural mosaic". I prefer to live in a melting pot, because not only does multiculturalism encourages/forces ethnic minorities to keep their ancestral culture, but it also encourages them to stay in their psychological ghettoes by reminding them that they are anything, but not Canadians (that explains why many ethnic minorities are not loyal to Canada).<br /><br />-------------<br /><br />Keeping ancestral cultural, but placing it inside the "Canadian" context, is the key to integration, and is not antithetical in the least. <br /><br />As for psychological ghettos, I'd say critiques against multiculturalism, such as yours, tend to reinforce 'ghetto-ization' more then ascribing to equal differences in national identity. <br /><br />I don't think you understand 'multiculturalism' the same as I I suppose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-29128297689957892052006-12-09T11:30:00.000-07:002006-12-09T11:30:00.000-07:00anh khoi do,
If you would prefer to live in a cou...anh khoi do,<br /><br />If you would prefer to live in a country that sees immigration as creating a "melting pot," that is an option that is open to you. There are plenty of people who go the opposite way from the way I went--it cuts both ways. The process can even be made easier for citizens of NAFTA countries by the existence of special visas, so you could take a job there now and apply for your U.S. Green Card later. <br /><br />Just something you might want to consider.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-66097584018728326982006-12-09T11:24:00.000-07:002006-12-09T11:24:00.000-07:00Ok, Idealistic Pragmatist, you mentionned that Can...Ok, Idealistic Pragmatist, you mentionned that Canadians are proud of the "cultural mosaic". Really? Unfortunately, you should know that looks can be very deceptive, because I do consider myself as a Canadian and I'm totally ashamed to live in a "cultural mosaic". I prefer to live in a melting pot, because not only does multiculturalism encourages/forces ethnic minorities to keep their ancestral culture, but it also encourages them to stay in their psychological ghettoes by reminding them that they are anything, but not Canadians (that explains why many ethnic minorities are not loyal to Canada). Furthermore, because of multiculturalism, ethnic minorities tend to see the Canadian identity not as a national identity used to unite people from coast to coast, but rather as an ethnic identity belonging to the French and English Canadians. In fact, you may have noticed that few people in Canada identify themselves as "Canadian" (except English and French Canadians).<br /><br />You can read why I'm firmly against multiculturalism here:<br /><a href="http://anhkhoi.blogspot.com/2006/11/multiculturalism-acts-backlash.html">The Multiculturalism Act's backlash</a>Anh Khoi Dohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15018387547508527604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-56119568663245492412006-12-09T11:12:50.220-07:002006-12-09T11:12:50.220-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.gfdgfdfdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13475421154766155811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-64969381704850557612006-12-09T10:55:00.000-07:002006-12-09T10:55:00.000-07:00If this were just about Ezra Lavant's comments abo...If this were just about Ezra Lavant's comments about Dion, I'd roll my eyes and forget about it. But my point is that this has been going on for more than a year, and it's a lot bigger than just Ezra Lavant being a blowhard.<br />----<br /><br />Agreed. Touche.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-80111236759614033652006-12-09T10:53:00.000-07:002006-12-09T10:53:00.000-07:00anonymous,
If this were just about Ezra Lavant's ...anonymous,<br /><br />If this were just about Ezra Lavant's comments about Dion, I'd roll my eyes and forget about it. But my point is that this has been going on for more than a year, and it's a lot bigger than just Ezra Lavant being a blowhard. It's about people dismissing Canada's most deeply held ideals out of hand without even thinking it through first.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.com