tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post111995763918159933..comments2023-08-03T07:33:41.442-07:00Comments on Idealistic Pragmatist: When an apology is not an apologyIdealistic Pragmatisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1120249575762324082005-07-01T13:26:00.000-07:002005-07-01T13:26:00.000-07:00If you go to Laurie's site I think you will see th...If you go to Laurie's site I think you will see that the point has been clarified. I think you will be satisfied.What it takes to win.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09546616178368611040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1120054144163924082005-06-29T07:09:00.000-07:002005-06-29T07:09:00.000-07:00I agree, IP, with your take here. I think that Mr...I agree, IP, with your take here. I think that Mr. Hawn really didn't mean to imply what he wrote. In the end what troubled me most was the 'I-put-my-life-at-risk-in-the-Cdn-armed-forces-to-protect-you' line.bucketshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14335699928912269666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1120046378102134962005-06-29T04:59:00.000-07:002005-06-29T04:59:00.000-07:00Okay, I won't speak for anybody else's motives, bu...Okay, I won't speak for anybody else's motives, but as far as I and the rest of the Edmonton-based NDP are concerned, there are a lot more political reasons for us to hope for Anne McLellan to fall in the next election than there are for us to hope for her to win again. You're just wrong about this one.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1120015038901611902005-06-28T20:17:00.000-07:002005-06-28T20:17:00.000-07:00IP:I grew up in the NDP. My grandfather ran on a C...IP:<BR/><BR/>I grew up in the NDP. My grandfather ran on a CCF ticket in B.C. My Dad was very active in the NDP Youth, but has since faded away as the party changed. I'm not a card-carrying member, but what Dippers say in public is different from what they say in private, as is the case with all people. One can't pretend otherwise.<BR/><BR/>As for NDP folks calling CPCers fascists in public I would cite an instance concerning Pat Martin. It's old, I know, but when one NDP MP says they call Alliance folks fascists, that's a good indicator. <BR/><BR/>Or one could peruse rabble.ca to get a rough idea. <BR/><BR/>By 'people' I mean all the commenters who are making a big deal out of Hawn's _capitalization_. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I wonder why no Blogging Tories have even mentioned it. <BR/><BR/>"people". Def; Moonbats who have hijacked a level-headed post(yours) and have taken it to the point of almost misrepresenting it. <BR/><BR/>Initially, you had a fairly well-balanced question and even allowed that Hawn may not have understood what he meant. It considered both sides of the issue.<BR/><BR/>But then once others picked it up, it became a one-sided smear campaign. It's like people remember what happened to Malcom Azania, who did apologize, but only after Layton chose to distance himself from the whole episode.<BR/><BR/>It's not campaigning _for_ McLellan so much as it's campaigning _against_ Hawn. It's a rational motive for anyone who's on the left, afterall.<BR/><BR/>"Accuse" is a loaded word, but it's not oustide the bounds of reason to conclude whom any Progressive would choose in a "least worst" decision between Hawn and Annie.<BR/><BR/>Who really knows what Hawn meant? This is the nature of communication - the difference between intended and perceived meaning, and sometimes the best way for a political bloc (not blog!) to get what it wants is to play the victim and show how their sensibilities have been violated by someone.<BR/><BR/>Hawn may apologize, and I don't believe I have said that he shouldn't apologize either. I just take issue with witchunts, which this has turned into.<BR/><BR/>To clarify, you asked a straight up question, but it's turned into a case of "he called jack a Nazi - get 'im!", and this has been done by other people. It's easy to figure out whom.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I just get a kick out of examining people's incentives and motives, that's all.AWGBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16639336770467631285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1120003778624648172005-06-28T17:09:00.000-07:002005-06-28T17:09:00.000-07:00Aaron,I don't know where you're getting the idea t...Aaron,<BR/><BR/>I don't know where you're getting the idea that the NDP doesn't care about the failings of the Liberal party, and won't take them to task. That certainly doesn't correspond to anything I've seen through my own work with the NDP. Also, if people in the NDP are calling conservatives fascists, I'm not hearing it. I do hear those kinds of things being thrown around, but they're all coming from other bloggers and people I know outside of politics. How many people do you actually even *know* in the NDP? The picture you paint is nothing like the one I've seen up close.<BR/><BR/>As for the stuff at the end, there, I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. By "people," do you mean me? I can only assume so, since you're commenting in my blog, but <BR/>I'm not calling for Hawn to apologize (in fact, I even said that in my post). You also seem to be saying that "people" should be honest and say that they're only talking about Hawn because he's endangering Anne McLellan--does that mean you're accusing me of playing politics for the Liberals with my blog? Honestly?Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1120002688705763282005-06-28T16:51:00.000-07:002005-06-28T16:51:00.000-07:00Here's an idea:Clearly Layton is no fascist. Well,...Here's an idea:<BR/><BR/>Clearly Layton is no fascist. Well, maybe when it comes to the environment. Nevertheless, if we strip away the symbols of fascism - brownshirts, goosesteps and swastikas, what do we have left?<BR/><BR/>Mussolini's famous definition is said to be "Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power". There is much debate as to what he meant by 'corporate' - those on the left think he meant 'corporate' as in 'corporation' whereas those on the right think he meant something along the lines of 'syndicalist'.<BR/><BR/>I think people in the NDP are so caught up with the "CPC-as-fascists" idea that they fail to examine the merger of state and corporate power in the Liberal party. We're talking Maurice Strong, Paul Desmarais and Power Corp, which has effectively made Prime Ministers out of rich lawyers from Quebec since the days of Trudeau. <BR/><BR/>One book that gets you to think outside the nazis-as-fascists meme is "Friendly Fascism" by Bertram Gross. It is one interesting read, for it says that Fascism lies in the area where the corporate and the governmental overlap. Corporations and government, in his view, live a symbiotic existence: bigger governments are needed to enforce the property rights of the corporation.<BR/><BR/>Also, one must ask when it is appropriate to demand an apology. I can hold my emotions hostage and demand an apology for any pereived ill I can dream up in an attempt to get my way: it's called manipulation, and people do it all the time. <BR/><BR/>Sure, Laurie Hawn should be careful about what he says in one of Canada's most hotly contested ridings, but that obsures the fact that nobody would care about him if the votes weren't that close. <BR/><BR/>This isn't about whether or not someone may have capitalized letters and called Layton a Nazi; it's about politics and I wish people would just be honest and say it.AWGBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16639336770467631285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1119993799852013932005-06-28T14:23:00.000-07:002005-06-28T14:23:00.000-07:00Yeah, though I do think a lot of NDP members are t...Yeah, though I do think a lot of NDP members are true socialists, the party's policies on the whole are more in line with <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy" REL="nofollow">social democracy</A>.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1119966960046076202005-06-28T06:56:00.000-07:002005-06-28T06:56:00.000-07:00Yeah, while I still have some suspicions about his...Yeah, while I still have some suspicions about his original wording, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I do think it would have been a better idea to be a little more gracious about the people who misinterpreted him. Is this how he plans to behave in Ottawa if elected?<BR/><BR/>Also: I will never delink you! The Ottery is a permanent fixture in my links for as long as this blog exists.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1119966580558365802005-06-28T06:49:00.000-07:002005-06-28T06:49:00.000-07:00Never mind, there I am. On the single-post page al...Never mind, there I am. On the single-post page all I could see was the Progressive blogroll.Rivkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685289315922699704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1119966528587817292005-06-28T06:48:00.000-07:002005-06-28T06:48:00.000-07:00Oh, I love the word "fauxpology." I was quite fami...Oh, I love the word "fauxpology." I was quite familiar with the concept, of course, but didn't have a good term for it before.<BR/><BR/>Part of me wonders whether his initial wording was designed to preserve plausible deniability. I suppose there's no way of knowing.<BR/><BR/>(And hey! You de-linked my blog! Should I be offended?)Rivkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685289315922699704noreply@blogger.com