tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post115323426628254110..comments2023-08-03T07:33:41.442-07:00Comments on Idealistic Pragmatist: Bush's touching cultural faux pasIdealistic Pragmatisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1154177712573720492006-07-29T05:55:00.000-07:002006-07-29T05:55:00.000-07:00America, you voted him! Suck it up. Enjoy the sham...America, you voted him! Suck it up. Enjoy the shame. Funny, some people still do not get it! It is not dignified for a head of state to do this same with his own wife in public or within sight of a camera. This is true anywhere in the world. Persons of stature do not do PDA except in very formulaic ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1154135119917316052006-07-28T18:05:00.000-07:002006-07-28T18:05:00.000-07:00First off, applause for your answer about the East...First off, applause for your answer about the East Asian definition of private space, someone really needed to say that. ^.^<BR/>If Bush had that common sense to differentiate between proper behaviour shown to strangers, friends and to people on official functions, he wouldn't be in trouble now, regardless of what he knows of other cultures.<BR/>That said, I still think the debate in America is overblown. I mean, his behaviour only shows that Bush is an idiot with no manners - that shouldn't surprise anyone who hasn't spent the last 6 years under a rock.<BR/>I also think the whole feminist/sexual harrassment discussion is beside the point: it's true, Bush wouldn't have done this to a man - because that is not a gesture common between men, friends or not. It doesn't necessarily have to mean he was 'showing her her place'. More likely it was a clumsy attempt to chum up to her (not that a shoulder massage <I>can't</I> be used to degrade or to sexually harrass a woman, of course).<BR/>But it’s sad that the Americans, after all the horrible things Bush has done, are more concerned with having a heated discussion about whether or not a brief shoulder massage is sexual harrassment. Shows how desperate his opponents must be if <I>that’s</I> their new anti-Bush campaign.<BR/>Lara HallmannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1154098698771681392006-07-28T07:58:00.000-07:002006-07-28T07:58:00.000-07:00In response to a number of posts ...Eric,you might...In response to a number of posts ...<BR/><BR/>Eric,<BR/><BR/>you might be from Germany, but obviously you are one of those males (not only to be found in Germany) who just doesn't see "what the fuzz is all about" when a woman's rights are infringed upon. Probably any person's other than straight males. Get some clues. If you know where to find them.<BR/><BR/>whichwitch,<BR/><BR/>you had me nearly bend over laughing at that imagine. I hopeit happens, and if it does, I'll make sure the video / DVD of it goes into time capsels coverning thenext ten millenia. :P<BR/><BR/>To the person who posted the uninformed comment that it is okay to touch Chinese people "because they bump into each other" all the time anyway: <BR/><BR/>What you are missing - or deliberately ignoring, in an attempt to defend the clueless lifeform currently occuping theWHite House - is the difference between Public Space and Private Space in social settings.<BR/><BR/>In China, as well as any number of other Asian countries - including Japan,where I reside - the sheer number of people crammed into relatively small spaces, including street crossings, subway and other trains, any place where you haveto line up, makesit virtually impossible NOT to touch anyone else by accident.<BR/><BR/>However, even in circumstances like that, there is a difference between an unavoidable casual touch and a targeted one.<BR/><BR/>Even more so, possibly BECAUSE of theunavoidable intrusion into private space in public places, there are extremely strong restrictions in place in regards to casual touching in private places, which includes meetings, conferences and such. Actually, excempting subway stations, anything roofed. Try to touch a person not related to you in any such setting, regardless whether male or female, same or opposite gender, and you'll meet utter disapproval. <BR/><BR/>Just for clarification, since sadly, the current White House occupant doesn'tcare one way or other anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1154051745618262872006-07-27T18:55:00.000-07:002006-07-27T18:55:00.000-07:00I would share my photoshop of the event, but blogg...I would share my photoshop of the event, but blogger doesn't let images be posted in comments, so here's the link instead:<BR/><A HREF="http://www.abandonedstuff.com/2006/07/19/presidential-groping-of-german-leader/" REL="nofollow">Abandonedstuff.com</A>Saskboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13258259356749068135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1154000804887839902006-07-27T04:46:00.000-07:002006-07-27T04:46:00.000-07:00Being from Germany, I can't see what the Fuss is a...Being from Germany, I can't see what the Fuss is all about.<BR/><BR/>Yes, it was unsuitable, but I don't agree the reception in Germany is worse than it is in the US, as Germany has a different, more pragmatical understanding of political correctness.<BR/><BR/>Trying to pass that little thing as sexual harassment would get you a mild chuckle from most Germans, because quite frankly, it isn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153939723920403082006-07-26T11:48:00.000-07:002006-07-26T11:48:00.000-07:00Yes, that "groper" Bush is a real cad. If only he...Yes, that "groper" Bush is a real cad. If only he had exposed his erection to her, as Bill Clinton did to Paula Jones, or if he had raped Juanita Broaddrick, as Clinton did, or put her hand on his erection, as Clinton did Kathleen Willey, or gotten oral sex from her, as Clinton did from an intern barely older than his own daughter, then Bush would have been classified as an "Alpha Male" as Leftists so hypocritically called Clinton but not Clarence Thomas...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153589024371530662006-07-22T10:23:00.000-07:002006-07-22T10:23:00.000-07:00Living in Germany as an American expat, I regularl...Living in Germany as an American expat, I regularly get to "witness" via the media the bull that Angela Merkel has to put up with from her male political "colleagues". I may not agree with her political views, but I have to admire the levelheadedness with which she usually deals with this kind of disrespectfulness. I guess her rising through the ranks as a chemical and physical scientist as well as a politician has given her enough experience (read "thick skin") in dealing with men who can't cope with a woman being in an equal or superior position. The peeved expression after Bush's childish "attack" is certainly one that Germans have seen quite often ... As for this specific "Bushwhack" - too stupid for words, but not surprising, although I'm sure he wouldn't have tried it on "one of the guys". And that brings me to my fantasy: Imagine the next president of France, ex-football star Zinedine Zidane, on a state visit and ol' George just not being able to resist rubbing that pate - Et voila! Giorgio Busherazzi laid out on the White House Lawn!!!!! Vive Zizou!<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO7AGOMx8AMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153513664269886992006-07-21T13:27:00.000-07:002006-07-21T13:27:00.000-07:00the man is disgusting... what do you expect from s...the man is disgusting... what do you expect from somebody who'd never been outside of Texas...<BR/>The groping is a way to humiliate and put somebody else on the defensive by not respecting their boundaries. It shows Bush's low self-esteem as he's always trying to bring people down to his level, in his gutter... he's been doing this since the beginning of his presidency... another way he does this, is by giving people derogatory nick-names... Bush is the perfect example of the Peter principle...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153427279852588112006-07-20T13:27:00.000-07:002006-07-20T13:27:00.000-07:00First -- I wanted to say that I just 'discovered t...First -- I wanted to say that I just 'discovered this site and that I was glad to find the comments of all here regarding the "Bush/Touching" matter to be very thoughtful -- Something I am have found is not always the case else where here on line. Thank you for a very good discussion. <BR/>Now to added my "two cents" I believe that Bush's actions here -- only goes to prove a greater (and sadder) over riding thing -- He (and for the most part -- his people) do not understand -- nor have any desire to -- the cultural, social or mind-set of any other peoples (this is true both around the world and within the USA). Bush just does not "get it". GW was born and raised in a "bubble" and has no idea of real life or how his actions effect others. The thing is he might have actually thought he was being " a nice guy" when he touched this woman -- but that only goes to prove my point-- mores the pity. Afterall -- being "enlightened" is a bad thing for people like him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153412464545387002006-07-20T09:21:00.000-07:002006-07-20T09:21:00.000-07:00American culture isn't that touchy-feely. I'm an...American culture isn't <B> that </B> touchy-feely. I'm an American girl and it creeps the hell out of me whenever unfamiliar boys try to do that to me. Bush's nationality or his ignorance of other cultures does <B> not </B> excuse him for this incident at all. Even by American standards, that was blatant sexual harrassment. He is a lying mass murderer, and he brings shame on our country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153411955724058822006-07-20T09:12:00.000-07:002006-07-20T09:12:00.000-07:00What is the big deal about that? All you people ju...What is the big deal about that? <BR/>All you people judging his actions have no right to judge his moral or actions. <BR/>Bush is much more responsible that many previus us presidents and bitching European politicians that has let the situation come to this point. History will prove that he is doing the right thing.<BR/>Europe is an old BITCH.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153387057066955922006-07-20T02:17:00.000-07:002006-07-20T02:17:00.000-07:00What makes this an absolute pisser (bracketing off...What makes this an absolute pisser (bracketing off for the moment the very weird assertion-of-power-over-women aspect) is that Bush doesn't behave as if anything important or momentous or in any way worthwhile could happen at these meetings. He's a class clown, and government functions are "class" -- something to be gotten out of the way, at best a way to fill time until the next party, parties being the really important things.[1]<BR/><BR/>The consolation that "serious students," or those students who if not serious are at least seriously interested in thinking about first derivatives or electron shells or *cough* the Great Gatsby, the consolation that they generally take is that, despite how the class clowns might be popular or cool or whatever <I>now</I>, they won't be later -- that the "real world" is serious business, and that the people who take things seriously will be on top once everyone's out in it. That's really not the case, though. Half the time the class clowns will have rich parents from whom they'll inherit their family business -- a car lot, a factory, a political machine -- and the people who are actually interested in reality, things aside from getting smashed and smashing things, are embarrassed to find themselves subordinate to them. <BR/><BR/><BR/>If one is born into power, one finds that the world never really becomes "serious" and so concomitantly they themselves never have to take anything seriously. I'm honestly not sure if the world leaders who've had Bush's presence inflicted upon them view his behavior as dangerous and stupid, or just embarrassing. I'm not sure if <I>they</I> don't think that the world is theirs to smash (after all, smashing things without consequence <I>is</I> fun). Bush behaves as if the powerful of the world are members of a chummy little club, that they fundamentally "get along" and that affairs of state are at core simply tedious window-dressing. Is Blair, for example, ashamed that he's forced to deal with this child-man who views the world as a toy, or is he simply embarrassed that Bush is acting like this <I>in public</I>?<BR/><BR/>[1]: "I thought you were gonna ask me about the pig."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153349843636945292006-07-19T15:57:00.000-07:002006-07-19T15:57:00.000-07:00"Bush may have passed it off as a joke, but you wi..."Bush may have passed it off as a joke, but you will NEVER see Bush doing the same to Blair - who's supposed to be his buddy." --<BR/><BR/>What kind of a guy would give another one a massage?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153348381126731882006-07-19T15:33:00.000-07:002006-07-19T15:33:00.000-07:00IMHO Mr. Bush has bumbled his way thur his preside...IMHO Mr. Bush has bumbled his way thur his presidency and being labled as a groper is a new but unsurprising low even for him. <BR/><BR/>To the rest of the world Bush has given America a black eye that will take years for us to recover from. His "manhandling" of the German leader was downright moronic. How thick headed is this man? It's obivious and very sad that Bush is in desperate need of a caretaker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153328482816884602006-07-19T10:01:00.000-07:002006-07-19T10:01:00.000-07:00"The same can be said for Bush's complete lack of ..."The same can be said for Bush's complete lack of cultural sensitivity when the Chinese delegation came to D.C. a couple of weeks ago."<BR/><BR/>The Chinese have a very different standard for personal space and touching than westerners. They have no problem with touching people, bumping into them, getting right into their space, at least relative to other cultures.<BR/><BR/>This may differ in official meetings, but on a day to day basis, it's very much the case.<BR/><BR/>If anything, Bush is being aware of Chinese culture by touching and getting close.<BR/><BR/>I tend to think you're reading something into the situation that wasn't there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153285070364329002006-07-18T21:57:00.000-07:002006-07-18T21:57:00.000-07:00This is appalling. Has Bush lost his mind? Did he ...This is appalling. Has Bush lost his mind? Did he ever have one? Sigh... just two more years... just two more years...JGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00273619697804064873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153273087249834182006-07-18T18:38:00.000-07:002006-07-18T18:38:00.000-07:00Exactly. Would Bush have done this to Blair? No. P...Exactly. Would Bush have done this to Blair? No. Putin? No. Any other male leader anybody can think of? No. It's a way of saying, hey, I've got power and you've gotta deal with it, haha. Whatsa matta? Can't take a joke? Sheesh. Women. Always wanting their personal space to be, like, respected and stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153267481447161162006-07-18T17:04:00.000-07:002006-07-18T17:04:00.000-07:00It's a way of putting women in their place in the ...It's a way of putting women in their place in the USA too. It's not a 'German thing'.<BR/>Would any one dare 'massage' a female executive during a business meeting? They'd be liable for a lawsuit. It's too bad Merkel can't sue Bush.<BR/><BR/>I did not think that it was possible to detest this appalling man MORE than I do now. I don't have words to describe my utter disgust with his total unfitness to be a 'world leader'.Nancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03559138404570089435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153266709804689092006-07-18T16:51:00.000-07:002006-07-18T16:51:00.000-07:00Rawr! Verra nice!Rawr! Verra nice!StealthBadgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03109211831859952231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153258971809762892006-07-18T14:42:00.000-07:002006-07-18T14:42:00.000-07:00Perhaps this is a worse faux pas in Germany, but w...Perhaps this is a worse faux pas in Germany, but wouldn't it be a faux pas in North America too? I wouldn't dream of touching someone *that* way, unless we were very close, and in an official setting I would never act that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153252104490579652006-07-18T12:48:00.000-07:002006-07-18T12:48:00.000-07:00The same can be said for Bush's complete lack of c...The same can be said for Bush's complete lack of cultural sensitivity when the Chinese delegation came to D.C. a couple of weeks ago. Bush practically mauled the President, who looked utterly appalled at the touching and yanking.watertigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12828268846154266843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153251502953367242006-07-18T12:38:00.000-07:002006-07-18T12:38:00.000-07:00alberich,Yeah, I've lived in several parts of Germ...alberich,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I've lived in several parts of Germany (mostly in the north and east), and traveled extensively throughout the rest, and I'd say there's absolutely a regional difference.Idealistic Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18296481430598981678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153250721644655602006-07-18T12:25:00.000-07:002006-07-18T12:25:00.000-07:00Actually I've noticed something very interesting d...Actually I've noticed something very interesting dealing with Germans in my own corner of the scientific field -- they are very non-touchy folk but on the other hand seem to have less of a concept of personal space than your typical American, who is not used to having someone stand so close to him without touching. <BR/><BR/>But is there a difference between the different regions of Germany? My experience is mainly with Germans from the southern parts of the country ... not Northeasterners like Merkel.alberichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03852752646926946626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153250242036148982006-07-18T12:17:00.000-07:002006-07-18T12:17:00.000-07:00Very good summary.Just a tiny nitpick. :)Being a G...Very good summary.<BR/><BR/>Just a tiny nitpick. :)<BR/>Being a German I´d say that today it´s a bit more relaxed. I see "casual touches" between close friends everyday. Even in public.<BR/>Likewise boyfriend-girlfriends are a lot more "affectionate" in public today.:)<BR/><BR/>But nobody would dream of acting that way during official events. Just isn´t done. Even her husband wouldn´t have touched her that way. It would show total disrespect for her official role and her job as chancellor. Her being "someone with stature". :)<BR/><BR/>I don´t think Merkel will say anything about it but she won´t forget it either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12426618.post-1153248685679022692006-07-18T11:51:00.000-07:002006-07-18T11:51:00.000-07:00I'm not from Germany and I don't see it as a joke ...I'm not from Germany and I don't see it as a joke either. Bush may have passed it off as a joke, but you will NEVER see Bush doing the same to Blair - who's supposed to be his buddy.<BR/><BR/>This was Bush saying to the other leaders, see what I dare to do and you all don't dare to.resigned idealisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01558888389267842246noreply@blogger.com